Head of Samsung Next: David Lee - Live in LA

• David Lee's battle with stage four lymphoma at age 25 profoundly influenced his career, leading to over 30 years in the healthcare system.
• He emphasizes the need for a 'puncture' in digital health, akin to SpaceX's reusable rockets, to drive significant progress.
• Law school, according to Lee, is like 'coding for your mind,' teaching logical structuring akin to programming.
• At Google, Lee learned to differentiate between good and extraordinary talent, a skill crucial for successful investing.
• Lee believes that understanding a founder's childhood passions can reveal whether their work is driven by genuine interest or obligation.

In this podcast with Kyriakos the CEO of Terra, David Lee delves into his transformative journey from battling stage four lymphoma to leading Samsung Next. He discusses the need for groundbreaking innovations in digital health, drawing parallels to SpaceX's achievements. Lee also shares how his diverse educational background, including law school, shapes his investment strategies today. Tune in to explore the intersection of health, technology, and personal resilience.

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Kyriakos: You started the healthcare understanding by having cancer, stage four in lymphoma. I was 25 at the time. It had a huge influence on my career, my life, so I've been involved in the healthcare system for over 30 years. This is David Lee, head of Samsung Next, Samsung's global innovation and investment arm. The real job is to tell the difference between somebody who can play at the orchestra and Yo-Yo Ma. You worked at Google early on when they were growing super fast. What are the learnings that you took from that and use today?

David: I think in technology, you want to see punctures in the equilibrium, something that moves that whole line forward by about five years. We haven't had that in healthcare. We haven't had our reusable rocket in digital health. Without a killer product, you have no strategy. What's the app that I can't live without? 

Kyriakos: Okay, guys, thanks a lot for coming. I was going around thinking the last few days that in every event I go, and in all the panels, usually people ask vanilla questions, which makes it more of an uninteresting conversation. So just a prologue, David, I'm going to make this personal. So vibe is happening right now. And it's a lot of healthcare companies around. But I think you started the healthcare understanding by having cancer. And you were stage four in lymphoma, which is an incredibly difficult disease to go through. So what have you seen in the healthcare system then? And how did you see things changing over time?

David: Yeah, it's, you know, that was about 30 years ago. I was 25 at the time in the 90s. And that really changed. It had a huge influence on my career, my life. So I've been involved in the healthcare system for better or worse for over 30 years. And then while I was at SV Angel around 2010 is when we started making investments in digital health. And then after that started a firm focused on digital health around 2016. And I now lead, as well as our venture initiatives, part of what I do is leading our digital health investment initiatives at Samsung. And so on the one hand, nothing has really changed, regrettably. I think in technology, you want to see punctures in the equilibrium. So if you look at any industry or technology, it just progresses linearly. And what you need in any moment in time is just something that moves that whole line forward by about five years. So in the, you know, people would talk about that's the internet, that's the white paper of Bitcoin, that's human genome sequencing. Well, that's part of it. You also need, though, the world coming onto broadband. So that was a puncture when the world moved from 2G to 3G. Or if you think about Bitcoin or crypto, we haven't really seen beyond that. Like, what's the puncture when you say, hey, things have changed? 

And for me, regrettably, when it comes to digital health, you always think, especially in the U.S., there are these punctures. So I think the human genome sequencing project started in 2000, and you felt like that was going to start a wave of healthcare companies and digital health companies. And you look right now, and even Illumina is kind of struggling, right? I mean, it's obviously a great company and has monopoly power, but, and it's had huge impact, but it's had linear impact. It's definitely better than it was in 2000, but not so much better where it's unrecognizable. And so the Affordable Care Act, that's part of the reason why I started the fund. The idea that of care going to value-based care and mind-body connection becoming more of a mainstream idea, investing in Headspace and some of the other companies. And while that is a mainstream idea, that really hasn't changed that much. So while the attitudes have changed, and it feels like we've come a long way, it's unfortunately, it hasn't been as sort of dramatic as, let's say, software or even hardware. If you think about what SpaceX is doing with reusable rockets, that was a puncture where it was like, okay, here's a different way. I mean, they are sending a rocket to orbit every two days, and they're going to make sort of, everyone talks about data centers in the sky, like that will happen. 

It's, you know, whether that happens in five years, 10 years, it's just a matter of getting all the equipment up there, for lack of a better term, right? But we haven't had that in healthcare. We haven't had our reusable rocket in digital health. And I think there are structurally a lot of reasons for that. Maybe AI is one of those moments, and I hope it is. I still say that I think the first big consumer AI app will be this sort of AI super app or health super app. But those are my general views of the market and just my perspective of being in this area, either as a patient or as an investor for the past 30 years.

Kyriakos: You went from study engineering into law and then into investing, and you had a little bit journey across different verticals. What do you think that investors, what do you think that you learned that investors don't know once they only do that career?
So given the journey that you had in different, like starting from engineering and then law and then different aspects, what have you learned that most of the investors don't know by doing that one career?

David: I think, well, first of all, I should blame my parents who basically said I could be anything I wanted to be so long I was doctor, lawyer, engineer. And so I was in engineering school, didn't even know how to jumpstart my car, got sick and was like my form of rebellion was going to law school instead of finishing a PhD. So it wasn't because I'm this polymath and constantly curious. It was like, I got to recover from cancer. Like I'd rather go to school than get a job. But the one thing I will say is that, and maybe not for this audience and maybe for this audience, people ask me all the time, what would you tell a young person to do in this day and age? 

And I say, actually, if you can afford it, I'd go to law school because I think law school is coding for your mind. Like I've written contracts, I've written code. It's the same structure. It's the same language. It's the same thought of like global variables. It's very logical, very tight. And when you communicate, one of the first things they talk about is the peanut butter and jelly sandwich idea. And they use this example in both law school and college. If you tell somebody how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, if you just ask your average person to do it, they're just going to say, go to this, you know what they'll say. But to actually program a contract, you have to talk like, what type of bread? Where do you get the bread? How many steps do you walk to the market? It's very similar, right? And then you also learn how to read and to write. Like I think reading a long attention span is differentiated in this day and age. Like it's going to be scarce, right? And I actually also think they say AI is going to kill lawyers. It's actually going to expand the number of lawyers, right? And then, and you effectively, you understand how to context engineer in a way that you don't as like an MBA or someone where you have to think about the facts first, right? And you have to think about and distill all the facts to what are the two or three things that really matter. 

And that's what all the great executives do too. Like they say somebody like Elon or Jack Dorsey, they're like, oh, they know all the details. Well, they know all the details, but they understand the whole system where they understand, no, no, no. These are the two or three details that I have to focus on. And it takes, you learn that in law school, how to focus on the issues. And it just takes a lot to really understand, you know, even a football coach, Bill Belichick, I'm Patriots fan and young Bill Belichick, he's kind of not aging well. But he would say, Belichick's key strength was he could take a football game to try to beat an opponent and he would boil the game down to three things. And he would say, here are the three things that matter. Everyone's looking at the same set of facts, by the way, but he's able to look at the three things that matter. And that's what a good investor does, you know, good public market investor. They have all the same data that we have, right? Like, what are they doing that allows them to beat the market consistently? It's not luck. It's just a different way of asking questions. And that's what I think law school teaches you in a way that I don't think is going to go away for a long period of time. And I think, you know, for those of you starting companies or working in health care, or I think that skill is going to be so important in this day and age.

The Orchestra or Yo-Yo Ma?

Kyriakos: You worked at Google early on when they were growing super fast, like a hockey stick, if we use that analogy. What are the learnings that you took from that and use today in your investment, like when you invest or when you judge people?

David: I don't know. I think I was very lucky. You know, it's a longer story, but I was able to work there. And this is what I tell investors who join my team is, I said, your number one job is you need to tell the difference between somebody who can play the cello, somebody who can play the cello and somebody who can play at the orchestra in the cello. Is it orchestra or symphony? I'm not a music person. But the real job is to tell the difference between somebody who can play at the orchestra or symphony and Yo-Yo Ma. You have to develop that ear. And right now, you can't even tell the difference between somebody who can play the cello and somebody who plays in college. And so the more time you spend listening to the cello and then people telling you, no, that one, that one's different. The better off you'll be able to be in spotting talent. And what Google allowed me to do there was just by luck. I was around Yo-Yo Ma all the time. And so when I, or you're around Michael Jordan, whatever metaphor you want to use. So when I think of like somebody really good at a really good engineer, my frame of reference is X. And X is, and I've seen X more importantly, it's just like sports or any talent profession. You don't want to compare somebody, I don't know, to Mark Zuckerberg or whoever iconic founder today. You want to compare them to Mark Zuckerberg when he was 25, right? And if you have that picture in your head, that gives you a better frame of reference. But even then it's really hard to identify who the outliers are.

Kyriakos: If we expand on that, David, like given your time in SV Angel, you invested in, like SV Angel at the time was investing in the likes of Airbnb, Stripe, Dropbox. Do you refer, can you refer to some of these conversations with these founders? And is there a way that you can inform us about, I've seen that characteristic or this characteristic from these individuals?

David: I don't think so. It's so hard. I mean, we were talking earlier. I think it's just almost impossible to project drive and tenacity and how they, he or she responds to certain situations. You know, take sports or health, you know, I don't know how much money football teams spend on the NFL draft, right? They spend millions and millions of dollars like interviewing, interviewing, you know, not just coaches, other players, teammates, girlfriends, friends, background checks, and they still get it 50% of the time wrong for the number one pick. You can pick anybody and there's still a 50% success rate. So I wish there was something that there was a common thread, but I guess the one common thread would be what I would always try to do in a way that was legal and tasteful was you always want to figure out what they were like as a kid. Like, what did they do as a kid? And is this an extension? Is this work to them? Every founder is going to be conditioned. Every employee is going to be conditioned. I love what I do. 

90% is just bullshit, right? Like, you know, nobody's like that. Then there are the very few that they grew up playing pickup basketball on a Friday night instead of hanging out with their friends. And then they just have this God-given talent. They're LeBron James. And similarly, you know, there are these people, you know, Saji from Benchling is my favorite example. I don't know if any of you are familiar with a company called Benchling, but basically what he did was he took a lab notebook for bio research and he just put it online. And it's now a $10 billion company. And, you know, he's so well positioned in this day and age of AI. But when he started, he was basically a lab rat as a kid, right? And so this wasn't really work to him. And if you think about like Jack Dorsey talking about Twitter of, you know, at night, he would just look at police logs and listen to, he just wanted to know, he was so fascinated by everything happening in real time. And so even though he didn't dream of Twitter as a kid, he dreamt of being the pulse of the planet. So those are the outlier cases, but you generally just want to see, like, is this work to them? And is, or is this something that they love to do? And then the other pieces, the easiest piece is how smart are they, right? That's very easy. The hard part is the drive. And what happens when you get punched in the face? Like, are you anti-fragile? Like, do you, you get punched in the face, you come back stronger. 

And we're all human in that, it has nothing to do with IQ, has nothing to do with how strong you are, how, you know, a lot of athletes here. You know, I've spent time with professional athletes, not a lot. I'm a little bit of a, I don't know what the groupie is for professional athletes, but I'm that guy. And a lot of, you know, a lot of the athletes will say, big games, you know, who's ready to play. I knew who I could count on. And I knew who was scared. And guess what? Most of them were scared. And this is professional sports, right? So we're all, it's all, it's all human nature, ultimately.

Samsung's Secret Super App?

Kyriakos: We're hearing this, this hype about AI and about the hardware that's being built and Apple speaking about creating these new devices. And we also spend a lot of time speaking together about Samsung Health and having so many users on Samsung Health. And what could potentially be built around this? What's some sort of, maybe a killer app that, could be built on Samsung's hardware, if it has to do some relation with Health?

David: If I had that answer, I would be, you know, one of the things that I wanted to convey was, I think one of the issues with digital health in my time is that, if you're going to, my experience has been, other people have different experiences, having invested in like Flatiron, Oscar, a lot of others. If you're going to the back end of the healthcare system, it is super messy. We all know it, just the payer, provider, patient, closing the loop. What are the loops? Where are the loops? Where are the trap doors? And it's just, you know, what are the loops? Where are the loops? Where are the trap doors? You know, there's a reason why it's whatever, 18% of GDP. Then the front end, which is D to C, you really have to build something that people love. And as trite as that sounds, you know, there's the book that I hand out to every founder is this book called Seven Powers, which is really, I think the ultimate, it's, you know, it's not just me, Daniel Ek reads it, Michael Moritz, Patrick Collison. It's basically the business strategy book for how to start a business and build a business. And it's like, as you grow in that S curve, how does your strategy and outlook change over time? But the simple idea is that without a killer product, you have no strategy, right? 

And so I think whether it be Samsung, Apple, Google, Amazon, there's all this, hey, if we connect everything, we close the loop, there's this fantastic experience. And yeah, it's a fantastic experience if you're sick, but when you're sick, you're gonna do whatever it takes to get better. But for your average user, what's the app that I can't live without? The chat GPT, the Waymo, the Google search, the, you know, even the Snapchat for young kids. And it's just really hard to, I don't know what it is. I think there's this super app idea in the same way that WeChat. 

And if you look at China, I think Alibaba has come up with that app that's really powerful, but it's powerful because we're popular because it really starts with the payments. And so it's super useful, but it's also really powerful and useful because Chinese are used to the super app concept. We're not, we like our vertical apps. And so, and then you need a player, you know, if you think of all the different, you know this better than I, all the different companies, they wanna keep people in their walled garden. Yes, they wanna build a super app for health, but they're not gonna give their sleep data to their competitor, right? They want that sleep data or their heartbeat, whatever the data is. So I wish I knew. I don't think it's a technology problem for sure. I think that even some of the local models that you could put on device lend themselves to a lot of digital health applications. But I think part of it is users. demand, which nobody has really cracked. And part of it is that back end, which is ultimately you do have to plug into that back end. And that gets super messy, right? China, you can do it because everybody uses Alipay. Everybody uses one payment network. That's how you're paying for health care. That's obviously that's not what happens in the US. So I'm like an eternal optimist, though. 

And I think we're in a better position than most because of our device footprint. You know, not just our watches, which I'm not wearing, but I have one here, the tracker, you know, our TVs, our sensors. But how long have we been saying this? Right. And I don't it's not a knock against us or Apple or Amazon. It's just as a consumer. You know, let's be honest, a big part of health is vanity. Right. And so if you I just think that by that, I mean, like people aren't going to wear glasses or something clunky or ugly if it's going to make them incrementally healthier. But it's not really great for their lifestyle or makes them look different. Yeah. Yeah. As opposed to like chat GPT or some productive app. If you said, hey, if you wear this, your IQ is going to go up 20 points. I'd be like, OK, maybe I'll wear it. Right. Like that's a pretty killer app. There's no I haven't seen sort of that killer app for even a. Semi broad audience, let alone, you know, there for certain verticals, there are Strava. You know, you could you can name a lot of different apps, but that's a much more narrow use case.

AI: The Next Frontier or Just Hype?

Kyriakos: You invested in AI a lot. You invested in companies like Perplexity. If you if you would guess what's going to happen in the next couple of years, are we going to see some sort of foundational model consolidating all the power or are there is going to be like hundreds of AIs serving different purposes?

David: I don't know. I think that I think it depends on the context and who your ultimate customer is. The thing about enterprise and the thing that I had, you can read about it in a book, but until you're there, you're not really going to internalize it is how slow moving by design big companies are. And the reason why we were talking about this, like your feedback loop for impact at a large organization is years, not months. And you are going to be a very small part of something really impactful. So Google even launching Gemini, right? I mean, this is not a great example because this is their core, but they launched Gemini, took them two years. Many people worked on it. Yes, they're one or two lead people. But in the end, you've had a very small sort of piece in building that app, right? And so, yeah, it just, it takes time. So, yeah.

Kyriakos: In all the conversations we do.

David: Oh, so I had a Biden moment there where I just sort of forgot what I was thinking about. So, so if you look at like the enterprise, they're going to go with trusted names. They're not going to care if this small provider or this healthcare provider, or excuse me, is like 30% better. It's got to be three X better, 300% better or there. So I think how it plays out. And I would imagine in health, it's going to be the same sort of dynamic where if you are giving like, why is it when you ask Gemini for your health advice, the first thing they give you is a disclaimer and chat GPT doesn't. And they do it because Google is a bigger organization and I don't blame them. I understand why they're doing that, right? But then to rely on a model and say, okay, you are at risk for a blood clot and getting that wrong. That's a different risk calculus. And so I ultimately think in this area of digital health for really mission critical illnesses, they're going to go to tried and true. What's not going to get me fired. Right. And then there's the DTC like directional. It's okay. Like what workout should I do today? It's not going to kill me, but I drank a lot last night and this is my schedule. What should I eat? What's my workout? Somebody is going to come up with something that says, yeah, you should eat steak and take it easy. You should do light yoga. Those are the sorts of apps that haven't really emerged yet, but then you have to ask yourself, how killer of an app is that? Like I've tried the Fitbit, I've tried the whoop, all these AI assistant coaches. They're kind of good, but they're only really good if they bring in all of my memory, like my calendar, my context, everything about me. And then you start going towards a line where trust now becomes part of that trade-off for a consumer.

Winning with Wisdom: Sports Lessons for Teams

Kyriakos: In all the conversations we do together, we usually end up discussing about sports. And so can you draw maybe three parallels from sports for running great teams?

David: For running great teams. I think it's the most underrated analogy because there's so much press coverage of sports and you can just learn, like there's this one great documentary on Netflix, which is about different coaches. And I forgot what it's called. It was like five years ago. And one of the coaches they featured was Jill Ellis, who was the, she was the coach of the U.S. Women's National Soccer Team when they went on that unbelievable run. And then there was a lot of controversy around equal pay. And they were thinking about sitting out a game and they were talking about it. And she said, and I quote this all the time, the best way to build a platform is to win. And that's just an example of like, in the end, it's about getting a team towards a common goal, a lot of diverse personalities, a lot of diverse backgrounds, but ultimately have you bought into the culture and the goals of trying to accomplish something. And whether that is building an app, building a healthcare company, building a software company, that's ultimately what you're trying to do. And also, and then you, another great sort of parallel that I draw is you see the different styles. You know, there are some people who they are very top down, my way or the highway. Some people relate very well to their players. Some people give a lot of autonomy to their assistant coaches. Some people want to control everything. And the, I think the takeaway there is you just have to be really true to yourself, that there is no one way of leading. And so, and I guess the one that really stands out to me is that if you, you know, so I've read a lot of like books on coaches or players, sports, and you hear all these tales or these documentaries. It's just this idea of culture. 

And we were just talking about it. Like, you know, I have two young kids or two kids, 16 and 12. Your kids will always, they'll never tell, they'll never do what you tell them to do, but they will always copy what you do. Right? In other words, and by that, I mean, they're not going to mimic it, but if you have a day and this is how you're spending your time, that is a value choice. You're making trade-offs, right? Of what is important to you and your kids internalize that. And ultimately, so for example, like I'm not the type of person that's always competing with myself and that competes for the sake of competition. I'm not running marathons for fun. Like I'm on the sofa watching television or scrolling Twitter for fun. And for me to ask my kids to do that, unless it's internally driven, would just be, it would just be a cognitive dissonance to them. Like what they see every day. And for you, you know, it's something we've talked about. It's the hardest thing about being a manager is everything that you do, people are watching you. How many breaks you take, who you value, what, like who you say happy birthday to, who you, you know, all of that. And so that's something that you see is that all styles are different. And then you just have to be true to yourself because in the end, if you're not, they're going to pick up on it.

Big Companies, Big Challenges: Apple vs. X

Kyriakos: I'm sure you saw the recent struggles from big companies like the likes of Apple about AI. And then given the size of the company, there is something to be said there. And then on the other side, like you have X that basically Elon goes in and fires everyone. And now it's, I heard it's like 30 engineers, but X is actually progressing. If we take these analogies like, and you consider some of the team examples as well, at the size of a really big company like Samsung, how have you seen the best way of running big corporations? And also maybe how does this apply to Samsung next?

David: It's so, again, very hard. I mean, I think the, we're seeing, I guess the other example other than sports is just the press. Like you read and you read stories about, I don't know how many books have been written about Jensen so far. I've never met the person, but I've read enough about him. And again, it all goes back to what you do every day. And I think if you, and he is somebody that is not on the couch on a Saturday watching television and scrolling X, he sets a tone and he sets a standard. And therefore his reports understand that as well. And I do believe in every great organization, whether large or small, if you're doing something really hard, it all depends on the top person. And so another story, when I came here 15 years ago, I grew up in public schools. We went to this, our kids, they're, oh, you should go to this private school. And it was like the fanciest private school. One of those private schools that I'm like, what, you know, these kids are eight, like what's the big deal? And very skeptical. And then I met the headmaster and I was like, I get it. Like for, and then once, like she would do things that, you know, she had been there like 25 years and this was, and there would be this event for new parents. And I saw her like replacing the bouquets in the middle of these tables with artwork. And so I asked her, I said, what are you doing? And she goes, this isn't, this is what everybody else could do, but they need to see what the kids do. Right. Then once she left, the school turned into one of those schools that I was afraid of. Right. And I was like, oh my God. Like it was like the stereotype. And that left a big mark on me. 

And then when she left, I mean, she's a very powerful person in LA. She gave a speech when she left, basically almost in tears saying how much she had sacrificed for the school. And she had sacrificed her, her kid's upbringing, what her husband had to do. And you hear a guy give that speech all the time. And to hear her give that speech, you just, it was just like a reminder of this is what it takes to have that sort of effect. And there are some organizations led by people like that. And I do think that's what it takes if you don't want to just go through the motions. I mean, Jensen could just, you could just be like, I'm good. You know, now let's, let's get on this linear ramp. At some point we'll be replaced by cheaper chips, things will go to the edge and we're good with our monopoly. You know, I don't even know if it, well, and then, but he is just so ambitious and what he wants to accomplish. And that rubs off on people. And it's, it's what I have found is that people talk about how CEOs are overpaid. And I feel like, yeah, on average they are, but that's not a profession where you look at the average, you look at the median, you look at what about the really great people, right? So whatever you want to say about Jensen, Elon, like what value, Jeff Bezos, what value have they created for others? And those people are super rare.

Kyriakos: For my last question, say you're starting a new fund at Samsung next today, what are your three biggest bets? If you, if you just started right now?

David: I'll give you two answers. One answer has nothing to do with this audience. Which is space. I think that is an area that is underrated in the impact it will happen, have on the next 30 years. And since, and I'm also biased because a lot of the really interesting activity is happening in LA. I would also, I would probably do something. I think AI, getting back to sports, in football, there's this idea of the red zone, which is once you're inside the other team's 20 yard line, like on average, getting that last 20 yards, really good teams do that 55% of the time. And the rest of the time they have to kick a field goal. So they can go the first 80 yards pretty quickly, but those last 20 yards are always really hard. And it's a belief that I have. I almost can't be swayed by facts that I think there's this red zone of intelligence that machines will never touch. And your job, so if I'm in a position and your job, so if I were in digital health, for example, or in health, I would think about like, for example, fitness instructors, really good ones, they're only going to get paid more, right? Because AI is only going, AI, what AI lets you do is that if you're a beginner fitness instructor, if you're using it correctly, within two months, instead of two years, you'll be intermediate. And then within two months, instead of three years, you'll be an expert, right? And then the question I think a lot of people will do is like, I'm an expert, right? And they'll just sit on their hands. 

That's not what AI does. What AI lets you do in that example is, okay, how am I going to spend the other 80% of my free time? And maybe where I spend my 80% of my free time is I get to know my clients better than they know themselves. And I'll use AI to learn everything about them, right? So that when they come to me, I am their AI coach with a human touch and that human touch has to surpass AI. And that is, that's just a somewhat trivial example. But I think if you can find an area where those professions that, where there is that red zone of intelligence that will never be touched and the people are using technology in a way that, where they're constantly elevating their services, that I think those are the companies to invest in. And they may not be, and probably won't be, I think venture capital is a very poor model of financing for these companies because they expect 3X year over year growth. Very few businesses in the world historically are built for that, right? And that's why if you, and so if you can find the, I would start the right funding vehicle that sets up the right incentives for the founder who may grow 50% a year and then start generating cash, free cashflow by year five, how do we both benefit? Because in the end, going all the way back to basics, like what does Warren Buffett say? He says, the whole purpose of a business is free cashflow, right? And if you can get there sooner and it may not be Google like cashflow, but you're doing it every year, how can you participate in that? 

And I think there will be an underrated number of companies and businesses that start with that in mind, but I think in the red zone is going to be, that is a skill that's really hard to master. And what are the, like for me, I'm in the services business and I tell my friends or young investors, I say, you know, growing up or when I was in business, I always looked at what CAA was doing. So like when Mike Lovitz and Hollywood and what they were doing, the whole agent business was super interesting to me. I'm like, they don't really do anything. Like they're just brokers, yet they're the most powerful people in Hollywood, right? And I've actually gotten to know Mike Lovitz and others. And it's really interesting when you hear how they built their business and now there are a lot of podcasts on them. I'm like, that's how you win in AI, do what they did. And he would talk about, you know, there's one clip of how Mike Lovitz would talk about, he wanted to get to know, he wanted Martin Scorsese's business. And so he basically watched every movie that Scorsese liked or the genre. And he said, I had no interest in it, but I had to know my client. And I mean, who would even do that today, let alone back then and think of all the material that's out there today to do that at a next level. So I'm very optimistic. Everyone talks about, oh, it's Doomer this, Doomer that. It is Doomer for people who feel like AI can do their job in a shorter amount of time. And that's it. If that's your outlook, yeah, you're going to get run over. So, but if that's not your outlook, the opportunities are boundless. 

Kyriakos: Phenomenal. David, thank you so much.